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Dividendos en Interactive Brokers

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sepharg
Mensajes: 13
Registrado: Vie Ene 11, 2019 09:41

Dividendos en Interactive Brokers

Mensaje por sepharg » Lun Mar 25, 2019 14:40

Alguien sabe porqué en algunos casos no te hacen retenciones en USA para dividendos?

por ejemplo VWRD (FTSE All-World UCITS ETF)

Tengo acciones en empresas americanas, y normalmente te hacen una retención del 15%, sin embargo con este ETF no me han cobrado nada
No me queda claro el porqué, y si alguien sabe que diferencia hay a la hora de presentar este dato en IRPF, agradezco los comentarios. En principio yo supongo que sería como cualquier dividendo, solo que sin marcar el % de retención (ya que no hay)
gracias

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ClarkBo
Boglehead
Mensajes: 515
Registrado: Vie Ene 04, 2019 16:40

Re: Dividendos en Interactive Brokers

Mensaje por ClarkBo » Lun Mar 25, 2019 15:04

Había algo relacionado con los UCITS, pero no me acuerdo qué era exactamente. A ver si otro compañero te puede ayudar.

inves76
Boglehead
Mensajes: 63
Registrado: Lun Feb 04, 2019 19:00

Re: Dividendos en Interactive Brokers

Mensaje por inves76 » Lun Mar 25, 2019 18:07

No soy un experto pero un ETF UCITS no tiene retencion en origen en irlanda en tu caso.
Los gestores de tu ETF han tenido que pagar ese 15% al IRS cuando cobran un dividendo de una empresa USA. Lo que no se muy bien es como puedes decir a la Agencia tributaria que has pagado dividendos fuera.
Yo resido en US y los fondos de Vanguard al final de año me dicen cuanto dividendo me han retenido fuera de US y puedo optar a tener un credito fiscal por esa cantidad. Pero no tengo ningun ETF que invierta en companias fuera de US para ver como se gestionan las retenciones internacionales en ese caso.

Mira esto
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Nonresi ... Irish_ETFs


Multiple levels of dividend tax withholding

Figure 1. Three levels of dividend taxation can apply to ETFs.
Investors that hold funds that hold securities can be taxed on dividends by multiple countries at multiple levels. [14]

There are 3 levels of dividend taxation to apply.

L1TW: Percentage of tax withholding by the home country of the security on the dividends distributed by the underlying international securities (Level 1).
L2TW: Percentage of tax withholding by the country where the fund is domiciled on the dividends distributed by the fund (Level 2).
L3T: Percentage of taxation that the individual investor needs to pay in their home country (Level 3).
Estimating Level 1 dividend tax withholding paid by US domiciled funds
According to the PWL Capital white paper,[14] the following are the percentages of tax withholding paid by different types of US domiciled ETFs

Fund Type Fund Used 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 5-Year average
US-listed ETF of [ex-US] developed markets stocks iShares MSCI EAFE ETF (EFA) † 7.5% 8.1% 7.6% 7.2% 6.9% 7.5%
US-listed ETF of emerging markets stocks iShares MSCI Emerging Markets ETF (EEM) 10.3% 12.2% 10.4% 10.1% 11.1% 10.8%
† Note that iShares MSCI EAFE ETF (EFA) excludes the US. You can use that number to approximate Level 1 taxes for the ex-US developed markets portion of the fund in question. If the US domiciled fund you are analyzing has 60% US stocks vs 40% ex-US developed markets, the Level 1 tax withholding will be 0.40 * 7.5% = 3.0% approximately.

Estimating Level 1 dividend tax withholding paid by Ireland domiciled funds
Using annual reports of the most traded funds from iShares and Vanguard, the following is the resulting Level 1 percentages leaked by funds per percent dividend yield. Those figures were calculated for this wiki post. If you find other sources online confirming, please update and reference accordingly.

ETF / Year Inception Date 2011 2012 2013 2014 Average
Vanguard FTSE Developed World UCITS ETF (VEVE) 30-Sep-2014 - - - 12.3% 12.3%
Vanguard FTSE Developed Europe UCITS ETF (VEUR) 21-May-2013 - - - 5.5% 5.5%
Vanguard FTSE Emerging Markets UCITS ETF (VFEM) 22-May-2012 - - 9.8% 9.0% 9.4%
Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (VWRL) 22-May-2012 - - 10.7% 9.8% 10.3%
iShares Core MSCI World UCITS (IWDA) 25-Sep-2009 12.6% 12.2% 11.9% 11.6% 12.1%
iShares MSCI Emerging Markets UCITS ETF (IDEM) 18-Nov-2005 11.4% 10.0% 10.1% 11.4% 10.7%
iShares US Aggregate Bond UCITS ETF (IUAG) 13-Sep-2011 - - 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
iShares $ Corporate Bond UCITS ETF (LQDE) 16-May-2003 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.1% 0.0%
iShares US Property Yield UCITS ETF (IUSP) 3-Nov-2006 12.6% 12.7% 13.6% 13.4% 13.1%
Keep in mind that each index provider (MSCI/FTSE) has a different definition of "Developed Markets" and "Emerging Markets". Different indices have different allocations of those markets, too.

Calculating dividend tax withholding as a ratio
To better compare different ETFs we can convert the tax withholding percentages into a total annual approximation, let's call it the Tax Withholding Ratio (TWR). This makes it easily comparable to the expense ratios found on funds' fact sheets.[15] See references[16][17] for more about this method.

To calculate the dividend Tax Withholding Ratio (TWR), we need four pieces of information:

L1TW: Percentage of tax withholding paid by the fund on the dividends distributed by the underlying international securities held (Level 1). This can be estimated using each fund's annual report, by dividing "Non-reclaimable withholding tax" by "Dividend Income".
L2TW: Percentage of tax withholding on dividends the individual pays (Level 2). If you are a non-treaty US nonresident alien investing in US domiciled ETFs, that number is 30%. If you are investing in Ireland domiciled ETFs and you do not reside in Ireland, you do not have to pay any Irish tax withholding.
YIELD: Annual yield of the fund. As you cannot know the amount of future dividends in advance, an approximation based on historical values (gross before withholding was paid) should be sufficient. Dividend yield is used in the formula as the Level 1 taxes are paid on dividends received by fund.
TER: The fund's Total Expense Ratio. Can be obtained from a fund's KIID document.[note 1]
The calculation after that is rather simple:

TWR = (YIELD × L1TW) + ((YIELD × (1 - L1TW) - TER) × L2TW)
The first term in parentheses calculates the Level 1 leakage. The second term uses the remaining dividend, deducts the fund's TER[note 2] and then applies the individual's Level 2 tax to the remaining sum.

You can now add the TWR to the fund's published expense ratio to get a comparable total ratio paid annually. Note that this does not include the dividend tax that the investor pays to their resident-country on the dividends actually received.

Example calculation for S&P 500 ETFs
Let us compare the US domiciled Vanguard S&P 500 ETF (VOO) vs Ireland domiciled Vanguard S&P 500 UCITS ETF (VUSA).

Vanguard S&P 500 ETF (VOO):

L1TW = 0%, as it is US domiciled, holding US securities
L2TW = 30%, US nonresident alien rate for countries without a US tax treaty
YIELD = 2.0%, estimated as we need it for comparison purposes, not exact dollar calculations
TER = 0.05%
TWR for VOO = 0 (no L1 withholding) + ((2.0% * (1 - 0) - 0.05%) * 0.30) = 0.59%
Vanguard S&P 500 UCITS ETF (VUSA):

L1TW = 15%, as it is Ireland domiciled, holding US securities[18]
L2TW = 0%, no Irish tax withholding on UCITS funds
YIELD = 2.0%, estimation
TER = 0.07%
TWR for VUSA = (2.0% * 0.15) + 0 (no L2 withholding) = 0.30%
L1TW for VUSA can be also calculated using its annual report[19]. For 2014, Foreign Withholding Tax (7,721,652) divided by Dividend Income (52,371,805) = 14.74%. TedSwippet explains that it's not 15.0% on the dot due to a 2.5% REIT allocation, which may distribute dividends or capital gains at different rates than the US treaty rate of 15% for dividends. A tax drag differing from the treaty rate may for instance be caused by foreign companies in an index, capital gains being taxed differently than dividends and REITs can recharacterize distributed dividends as return of capital, which is not to be taxed.

Including the funds' expense ratios: VOO's total cost is 0.64% for a nonresident alien with no US tax treaty, while VUSA's total cost is 0.37%. For this investor then, VUSA is the better holding.

Example calculation for FTSE World ETFs
Let us compare the US domiciled Vanguard Total World Stock ETF (VT) vs Ireland domiciled Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (VWRL).

Vanguard Total World Stock ETF (VT):

L1TW † = 0% * 52% (US) + 9% * 10.8% (Emerging Markets) + 39% * 7.5% (ex-US developed) = 3.9%
L2TW = 30%, US nonresident alien rate for countries without a US tax treaty
YIELD = 2.0%, estimation as we need it for comparison purposes, not exact dollar calculations
TER = 0.17%
† Ratios of US/EM/DM obtained from VT's Vanguard.com portfolio page.

TWR for VT = (2.0% * 0.039) + ((2.0% * (1 - 0.039) - 0.17%) * 0.30) = 0.07794 + 0.52562 = 0.60%
Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF (VWRL):

L1TW = 10.3%
L2TW = 0%, no Irish tax withholding on UCITS funds
YIELD = 2.0%, estimation
TER = 0.25%
TWR for VWRL = (2.0% * 0.103) + 0 (no L2 withholding) = 0.21%
Including the funds´ expense ratios: VT's total cost is 0.77% for a nonresident alien with no US tax treaty, while VWRL's total cost is 0.46%. For this investor, VWRL is the better holding. Note that as allocation to countries changes over time, the tax drag will change over time as well. Also note that as yield changes over time, the tax drag will change over time as well.

Pepeco
Boglehead
Mensajes: 117
Registrado: Vie Ene 04, 2019 17:12

Re: Dividendos en Interactive Brokers

Mensaje por Pepeco » Lun Mar 25, 2019 18:16

Según lo que tengo visto, los fondos denominados UCITS no te retienen en origen, solo pagas a Hacienda la retención correspondiente en España. En el caso de IB, además, al ser un broker domiciliado en el extranjero que no informa a la Agencia Tributaria, tienes que declararlo tú directamente en tu IRPF.
"There seems to be some perverse human characteristic that likes to make easy things difficult." - Warren Buffet. Hazlo simple.

sepharg
Mensajes: 13
Registrado: Vie Ene 11, 2019 09:41

Re: Dividendos en Interactive Brokers

Mensaje por sepharg » Mar Mar 26, 2019 09:20

vale muchas gracias por las respuestas
es cierto que si el ETF paga dividendos en USA antes de dármelos a mi debería recibir compensación, aunque lo veo bastante complicado explicarle y demostrarle esto a los de hacienda...
lo de la declaración pues entonces es igual a cualquier dividendo solo que sin la devolución del 15% por el acuerdo bilateral

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